"There are many ways in which atheism is a comforting delusion: it is the delusion of absolute autonomy, of ultimate lack of accountability, of there being no one or nothing higher than ourselves, etc." - Mariano
Being a non theist or being a theist it is the same really since there are no real gods except in mythologies and in the delusional minds of people infected with the mind virus of faith based beliefs.
In objective reality people have absolute autonomy unless they give it to someone else as so many do when they give authority to governments, leaders of their "group", to their "faith". Giving one's autonomy to another is slavery.
As for the ultimate lack of accountability humans have taken up the accountability in a number of ways with peer pressure, conversation, police, justice systems, and yes horrifically even vigilantism, wars, police, justice systems, terrorism, assassinations and a whole host of other nasty methods. Why? Without there being a "higher" authority then humans we need to do the job ourselves when appropriate. The problem comes in when some people think it's appropriate and others don't! Then you have conflict. This is the world we live in. Believe in fairy tales of mythical gods and demons won't do anything except give you an illusion that there is a higher power. Belief in gods never stopped Hitler or other evil and vile christians from carrying out their nasty vile evil deeds in accordance with their belief systems however close to the bible or distorted from it. Imaginary friends in the sky won't stop bullets. A real friend might move you out of the way or prevent you from getting into the situation in the first place, or take the bullet for you on purpose or by accident. That's more than any mythical god has ever done for any human.
The Faith Based Beliefs that you hold so dear to won't save you from the permanent death without any possibility of an afterlife. It's the bugs that will have the party on your corpse as they will with mine, unless my wishes are carried out and they burn my corpse. Eventually our bodies turn to dust.
So you can go on believing in your mythical gods with your silly faith all you want, it won't make them real in the real objective reality that we actually exist within. Sure you'll "FEEL" that your mythical gods (three if I'm not mistaken by which faith you're into) are real but that is your faith based delusion and possibly dementia depending on how far it goes.
As for atheists being deluded. That seems highly unlikely for atheists will turn on a dime when presented with actual repeatable scientifically verifiable evidence for something being real. Show us the evidence and the proof and if it stands up to investigation then yes it's at least highly plausible if not evident.
Let's look at the so called evidence from the bible for one of the three gods of christianity: the mythical jesus.
He can walk on water. Ok, that's a stretch.
He can rise from the dead. Give me a break.
The walking on water experiment can be performed in any body of water as long as no cheating is done! That means no frozen water - even I have walked on glaciers of mile thick ice. Easy one. Liquid water without any boxes or other means of support that is quite different. Let's test it in your bath tub. Fill it with water at least 12 inches or 20 cm deep. Then simply step onto the surface of the water taking great care to not sink in the process. Oh, wait, you can't. You sink right. Try as you might you can't walk on water. There is a reason for that. It has to do with your mass, the surface tention of the water, and much other boring science stuff. It's not possible for you to walk on water! This test no matter who does it will fail. Thus the evidence is against the mythical jesus doing the same. The mythical jesus could not have walked on water as PROVEN WITH EVIDENCE using the scientific principles of the so far discovered and well tested laws of Nature. Not only is it not possible for the mythical jesus to have walked on water it's 100% certain that he could not have.
Now he could have been a magician or performed a trick by having rocks under the water. Great illusionists such as Chris Angel (check out his awesome Mind Freak show) can make people believe anything is real, but alas it's simply trickery. If the mythical jesus performed such a trick he'd be what is considered a "con man" if the people didn't know that is what he was doing.
So, the laws of Nature prevent the mythical jesus from walking on water which means that the story in the bible is false and simply not correct. It could be a lie? Sure, holy men wanting money is a con game that runs rampant as it's easy to part a fool with their money and there are so many faith based believers who are parting with their money to the church and other con men of the cloth.
Rising from the dead. Wow. That's a big one that if shown to be not true would rock the christian world. Well, it could not have happened at all! Not possible!!! Why? Simple: dead bodies don't rise from the dead. Now we all know that but why give an exception to the mythical jesus? Because by taking the leap of faith into the christian mythology that jesus rose form the dead you've suspended your critical thinking which is what the con men of the cloth want you to do. You see you are easier to fool that way and your wallet opens wider and more often for them to pluck money from. Ok, dead bodies don't rise from the dead... they rot... they dissolve... they go through many stages of decomposition from the moment you are brain and organ dead (your heart stops and can't be restarted). The bugs start their jobs, not just the maggots either but bacteria. Cells break down due to a lack of oxygen. Irreversible icky stuff happens in objective reality to dead bodies of any species and of any life form on earth.
So if the mythical jesus died he died forever and someone either made up the story (there were many decades between the alleged incident of rising and the writing of it for some reason) or someone moved the body and pretended to be the mythical jesus when he walked out of the tomb. Con jobs all.
The bottom line is that the mythical jesus was just that a mythology, a made up story book no different than Star Wars was made up of myths before it, or of Superman, or of any super hero. The fact that you bought it as real indicates a deep delusion and disconnection from objective reality on your part. Hopefully you don't really follow the bible in your deluded state of mind since then you'd have to bash babies against the rocks and commit genocide against those over the hills and many other nasty evil and vile orders of violence, rape, murder, incest, killing ordered by your mythical gods.
May you live in peace free from the slavery of faith based beliefs. May you teach your children to use evidence and proof to determine what is real and not faith! By doing so you will bring them into the modern scientific era out of the dark ages of faith and magic. If you can't save yourself at least save them from the slavery and spiritual void of faith based beliefs. Bring them up in objective reality where the world is real.
Peter, Thanks for the comments, questions and good points.
You have presented me with one of the most absolutist and dogmatic set of statements I have read in a long time. Your comment is peppered with claim after claim of your having knowledge of things that you cannot possibly know.
How do you know that there are no real gods? Please prove it.
How do you know that there are mind viruses? It seems that you have contracted the Dawkinsian meme (which is an enthymeme). Please prove it.
“Giving one's autonomy to another is slavery” this is precisely inaccurate. When someone takes your autonomy it is slavery but when you are, as you state it, “Giving” then it is not slavery since it is willful.
None of your examples of vigilance amount to ultimate accountability since if you do not care and if you do not get caught then you simply get away with it.
How do you know that “Believe in fairy tales of mythical gods and demons won't do anything except give you an illusion that there is a higher power”? Disregarding your caricatures, I could line up a very, very long line of people who could prove you wrong by telling you a little bit about their lives before Christ and afterwards.
How do you know that “Imaginary friends in the sky won't stop bullets”? Imaginary friends, perhaps not, but a real relationship with the real God will. Please read up on Raul Ries who was a very, very violent and angry young man who was waiting in his house, with rifle in hand, for his wife to get home so that he could murder her and then commit suicide. Yet, his rifle “accidentally” hit the power button on the TV where “accidentally” Pastor Chuck Smith was preaching. The rest is history. Bullets were prevented from flying in the first place.
How do you know “That's more than any mythical god has ever done for any human”? Please prove it.
How do you know that “Belief in gods never stopped” anyone, let us say, “from carrying out their nasty vile evil deeds”? Please prove it.
How do you know that “The Faith Based Beliefs that you hold so dear to won't save you from the permanent death without any possibility of an afterlife”? Please prove it.
I believe in three gods? Yes, you are mistaken.
How do you know what atheists will do?
Science deals with the natural and therefore has nothing to say about the supernatural. Asking for scientific evidence of the supernatural betrays your misunderstanding of science.
Your argument against miracles is circular logic. If I may state it succinctly, you appear to be stating that there is uniform experience against miracles. Thus, if miracles do not occur, then they simply do not occur. However, you can only know that there is uniform experience against miracles if you know that all reported miracle claims are false. And, of course, you can know that all reports are false only if you already believe that miracles have never occurred.
Even using your own argument and absolute materialism I can show your anti-miracle argument to be illogical. You referred to, “the scientific principles of the so far discovered and well tested laws of Nature” since tomorrow we could discover thus far unknown laws or test known laws better you cannot know that “it's 100% certain.” And what if even just once Jesus was able to walk on water? Just because you cannot reproduce it is no argument against it having occurred. Do you believe that the universe had a beginning? How many times can science prove that it happened? Once. Do you believe that life originated on earth? How many times did that happen that science can prove? I am tempted to say “once” but science actually has nothing but quaint Victorian era stories about this issue. But yes, generally it is stated that it was once. All of history is filled with occurrences that happened only once, never to be repeated such as your birth.
“he could have been a magician or performed a trick…” what someone “could have” done is irrelevant to what they did do. Please prove that he was performing tricks.
Please prove that Jesus deceived people in order to get their money. Every atheist organization I know has a donation button on their website. Does that tell you that they are deceivers?
How do you know that “dead bodies don't rise from the dead”? Because, as you say, “your heart stops and can't be restarted”? Please do some research on difribulators.
How do you know that “someone either made up the story…or someone moved the body…Con jobs all”? Please prove it.
How do you know that “jesus [sic] was just that a mythology, a made up story book”? Please prove it.
Please prove that in order to “follow the bible” I would have to “bash babies against the rocks and commit genocide against those over the hills and many other nasty evil and vile orders of violence, rape, murder, incest, killing.”
Also, please provide the standards by which you condemn such actions and the other vile evils that you mention.
Your welcome. Brace yourself for this might challenge your beliefs or upset you.
"You have presented me with one of the most absolutist and dogmatic set of statements I have read in a long time. Your comment is peppered with claim after claim of your having knowledge of things that you cannot possibly know." - Mariano
That's quite funny Mariano considering that you'll accept any nonsense on faith. You sure know how to twist the arguments used against your point of view around. I'll give you that, however simply being a good debater isn't going to help you as you don't get it when you attempt to do that and that is why you fail.
"How do you know that there are no real gods? Please prove it." - Mariano
The evidence for no gods possibly existing is easy. The speed of light prevents it. No god - real or imagined or immaterial - can violate the speed of light. No gods can be omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent since that would violate the laws of physics. The only thing that mythical gods are is omni-stupid ideas from failed attempts at science thousands of years ago.
Wishful thinking on your part Mariano won't alter the laws of physics!
"How do you know that there are mind viruses? It seems that you have contracted the Dawkinsian meme (which is an enthymeme). Please prove it." - Mariano
Obviously you don't get the notion of mind viruses. They are mostly a metaphor. I'm not actually asserting they are a reality. They are used to describe what could be going on.
“Giving one's autonomy to another is slavery” this is precisely inaccurate. When someone takes your autonomy it is slavery but when you are, as you state it, “Giving” then it is not slavery since it is willful." - Mariano
Yes, it is slavery, willful or not. A few of my ancestors were "indentured servants" for passage across the Atlantic to the so called new world; they didn't have any illusions that they were not entering a form of slavery! We're talking about autonomy, full control of you. Which is what many religions expect.
None of your examples of vigilance amount to ultimate accountability since if you do not care and if you do not get caught then you simply get away with it.
"How do you know that “Believe in fairy tales of mythical gods and demons won't do anything except give you an illusion that there is a higher power”? - Mariano
Basic observation. It does cause people to commit unspeakable acts of violence against others. It's simply wishful thinking on you part Mariano.
"Disregarding your caricatures, I could line up a very, very long line of people who could prove you wrong by telling you a little bit about their lives before Christ and afterwords." - Mariano
What? You can line up people who are long dead and have them tell me stuff? You're a total nut job Mariano, way worse than I thought.
Now maybe you meant figuratively rather than literally. Ok, so what? I'm not saying that you can't have positive experiences or think you are by being deluded by Christ and other cult beliefs of a similar ilk.
You're simply a wishful thinker Mariano.
How do you know that “Imaginary friends in the sky won't stop bullets”?
It's up to you to prove with evidence that they do since you are the ones positing the existence of mythical gods.
Since you ask it's easy, since gods don't exist they can't stop bullets. Even if they did exist they couldn't affect the laws of nature.
"Imaginary friends, perhaps not, but a real relationship with the real God will." - Mariano
There is no real god. It's a mythical idea. Not real in any shape or form other than your fantasy.
"Please read up on Raul Ries who was a very, very violent and angry young man who was waiting in his house, with rifle in hand, for his wife to get home so that he could murder her and then commit suicide. Yet, his rifle “accidentally” hit the power button on the TV where “accidentally” Pastor Chuck Smith was preaching. The rest is history. Bullets were prevented from flying in the first place." - Mariano
Ok, so you are a total nut job after all. That's not proof of gods interfering with the events. There are things known as accidents.
"How do you know “That's more than any mythical god has ever done for any human”? Please prove it." - Mariano
Mythical gods are just that mythical. They can't exist. The laws of Nature prevent them from existing in objective reality. They can't even exist immaterially.
Besides it's up to you to prove with evidence that they do exist. Failure to prove that they do exist means that you've got nothing. Worse than that, a lack of prove with evidence means that there is no way that you can know anything about any aspect of your mythical gods. They are a fantasy as is everything you think you know about them. It's all a mythology.
"How do you know that “Belief in gods never stopped” anyone, let us say, “from carrying out their nasty vile evil deeds”? Please prove it."
A belief might stop someone but the mythical gods you think are real won't since they are mythologies of fairies and magic people. Not real. Stories for sure, but not real life. Get over it.
"How do you know that “The Faith Based Beliefs that you hold so dear to won't save you from the permanent death without any possibility of an afterlife”? Please prove it." - Mariano
That's easy. Dead bodies rot and are eaten by bugs and eventually turn to dust one way or another. Since you are inseparable from your body and souls don't exist dead bodies are our final fate. No afterlife but bugs chewing on your corpse.
"I believe in three gods? Yes, you are mistaken." - Mariano
You seem to be a christian interested in Christ but you also say "shalom" so I'm actually a bit confused by you lack of statement on your faith. Christians have three gods in one, jesus, god, and the holy spirit. All nonsense. I guess god has three fingers. I'm not sure about the specific details of Jewish beliefs. Don't need to since it's all so much mind poo regardless of the details of whatever faith it is.
"How do you know what atheists will do?" - Mariano
I don't know what you mean. I know pretty well what my friends who are atheists generally will do to some degree.
"Science deals with the natural and therefore has nothing to say about the supernatural. Asking for scientific evidence of the supernatural betrays your misunderstanding of science." - Mariano
Nonsense. Any claims made by faith freaks such as yourself that assert aspect of objective reality are true are valid ground for science to investigate. I'm surprised you don't know that. If you've read and Dawkins, Hitchens, and others you'd clearly know that.
"Your argument against miracles is circular logic. If I may state it succinctly, you appear to be stating that there is uniform experience against miracles. Thus, if miracles do not occur, then they simply do not occur. However, you can only know that there is uniform experience against miracles if you know that all reported miracle claims are false. And, of course, you can know that all reports are false only if you already believe that miracles have never occurred." - Mariano
Miracles violate the laws of Nature thus miracles are fantasies by those hoping for them to be real. You are simply delusional if you think that miracles can happen in objective reality.
What evidence? Dead bodies don't rise from the dead after organ, brain death and cell death of critical cells. Never have and never will. It violates the well know and well tested laws of biology, chemistry, physics.
Get over it, miracles can't happen.
"Even using your own argument and absolute materialism I can show your anti-miracle argument to be illogical. You referred to, “the scientific principles of the so far discovered and well tested laws of Nature” since tomorrow we could discover thus far unknown laws or test known laws better you cannot know that “it's 100% certain.” - Mariano
Nonsense. Any new laws of Nature that we'd discover would have to take into account what is currently well know and well tested. Well tested means that we know quite a bit about that area. The example is Newton to Einstein and beyond. These transitions all incorporate the earlier work. That is the way of the objective reality that prevents nonsense mind pablum like yours Miriano.
"And what if even just once Jesus was able to walk on water? Just because you cannot reproduce it is no argument against it having occurred." - Mariano
It's nothing to do with having to reproduce it. We don't need to reproduce it to know it can't happen. Learn some science. Free your brain from wishful thinking. You really are deep into the cult. Really deep.
"Do you believe that the universe had a beginning?" - Mariano
I have no beliefs in that regard. The current evidence points to the big bang having occurred.
"How many times can science prove that it happened? Once." - Mariano
Yes, but we have evidence that it very likely happened, whereas with dead bodies rising and walking on water we have evidence and laws of nature to prove that it can't happen, didn't happen, will never happen. Thus your bible and it's stories are just that stories that if they did happen were embellished so that fools like yourself fall for the con job by the men in cloth to fill their wallets and drain yours.
"Do you believe that life originated on earth? How many times did that happen that science can prove?" - Mariano
The jury is out as it recently has been shown to be plausible that life originated in space and was seeded here by natural processes. Organic compounds that are the building blocks of dna have been found in space. However, complex life arose here on earth. The evidence in the fossil record in the actual Earth is overwhelmingly conclusive about that. Life may have arisen more than once on Earth, that is possible as it might not have taken the first time. We don't know that detail and while it's interesting it won't change the facts in the ground that prove complex life originated here.
"I am tempted to say “once” but science actually has nothing but quaint Victorian era stories about this issue. But yes, generally it is stated that it was once. All of history is filled with occurrences that happened only once, never to be repeated such as your birth." - Mariano
So it's likely you are also an unintelligent Intelligent Design proponent as indicated by your comments about "Victorian era stories".
It doesn't matter that all of history is filled with events that only happened once. It's clear that you don't know how to think and apply laws of Nature!
Can you jump up to the moon from the surface of the Earth without any assistance from machines? Nope. It will never happen. That is the application of the laws of physics to determining if something is possible using the process of elimination, a key component of scientific thinking and reasoning. It also matters not whether you use Newton or Einstein or Quantum Physics to determine if you can get to the moon with just your body and no machines. Even though the laws of physics have been updated since Netwon and Einstein you still can't violate them!!! Never going to happen.
“he could have been a magician or performed a trick…” what someone “could have” done is irrelevant to what they did do. Please prove that he was performing tricks.
Well he didn't rise from the dead and he didn't walk on water. If people think he did - assuming he existed at all - then he was a con man performing tricks to deceive people. That is evil and vile. If he didn't do any of those things then the people who wrote the bible and other documents are liars or the people who told them what to write or the people who told them. It's simply broken telephone.
The laws of Nature override any possibly of miracles. Get used to it Mariano.
You really do seem lost deep in your mythology. Sad really.
"Please prove that Jesus deceived people in order to get their money. Every atheist organization I know has a donation button on their website. Does that tell you that they are deceivers?" - Mariano
Dead bodies don't rise from the dead.
How do you know that “dead bodies don't rise from the dead”? Because, as you say, “your heart stops and can't be restarted”? Please do some research on defibrillators.
Jesus wasn't in a modern hospital, he was in a cave three days rotten! Learn some biology. Visit a farm where they slaughter animals and watch an animal begin to decompose for three days. It's not coming back to life and you know it. That is the evidence that your precious jesus rotted and didn't rise from the dead.
Every time you eat a piece of meat you are eating the evidence that Jesus could not rise from the dead and thus can't be anything but an ordinary human being! So enjoy the meat and think about how stupid you are for thinking that dead bodies can rise from the dead. You see little bugs and bacteria were working on Jesus even before he died! By the time he was both brain dead and organ dead he was too far gone to be saved by a MODERN hospital that wouldn't be around for another ~1930 years!!!
It's wishful thinking to think that dead bodies can rise from the dead AFTER organ death and brain death. The only reason that hospitals can sometimes revive people, it's quite rare actually, is that they have electricity and modern technology to zap the heart BEFORE brain death and organ death occurs. Go and talk with some emergency room medics and you'll know what I'm talking about. A friend of mine works in the cardiac care unit of one of the major local hospitals and she knows this fact of life all too well.
No wishful thinking on your part will bring dead jesus back to life. If he died he stayed dead. Simple.
"How do you know that “someone either made up the story…or someone moved the body…Con jobs all”? Please prove it. "- Mariano
Prove that jesus rose from the dead with evidence! You're the nut job attempting to violate the laws of Nature with your stories.
Well if he was seen after he supposedly died then he wasn't really dead just pretending to be dead, or someone pretended to be him after he did in fact die. It's not rocket science. It's pretty basic forensic analysis of a crime scene to think it through. Dead bodies don't rise from the dead thus the story can't be true.
You cling to the story with all your resolve even when confronted with laws of Nature that conclusively prove that dead bodies can't rise from the dead or that people can't walk on water.
"How do you know that “jesus [sic] was just that a mythology, a made up story book”? Please prove it." - Mariano
It's up to you to prove with evidence that he did exist since you are the one positing him, not me.
The proof that he was a mythology is that dead bodies don't rise from the dead. There might have been a jesus for all I know, but he most certainly wasn't the son of god and he didn't walk on water nor rise form the dead. Facts of life. Sorry to break these facts of life to you Mariano but it's important that you know them since you've got some kids to bring up into the modern era. Bringing them up in the 13th century with old myths won't be wise.
"Please prove that in order to “follow the bible” I would have to “bash babies against the rocks and commit genocide against those over the hills and many other nasty evil and vile orders of violence, rape, murder, incest, killing.” - Mariano
Well that is what some of the orders of your mythical gods in the bible order his follows to commit. See some of the nasty the quotes from the bible here: http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm. There are many more in the bible. It's riff with them. Sure you can cherry pick, but if anyone wrote such a vile book in our modern era they'd be charged with hate crimes. Oh, wait someone did, it was called "Mein Kampf". While some stories in the bible might be "good" many of them advocate horrific crimes, which means you can't cherry pick them. If you could then why not cherry pick from the other book mentioned as some do (I don't by the way)?
"Also, please provide the standards by which you condemn such actions and the other vile evils that you mention." - Mariano
The standards are contemporary ethical standards in most western countries. By these standards Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost and the Roman Catholic Church should be brought up on Crimes Against Humanity. Sadly politics prevent that. Oh, and the fact that the gods are a myth. The culprits are the delusional and demented folks running churches and other religious organizations around the globe.
Face it Mariano you are deeply delusional and possibly demented by your Faith Based Beliefs. So much so that even simple tests of the laws of Nature that you yourself can test for and apply with simple reason ruling out any possibility of these stories being true has no impact upon you. That means that you can't really even hear what I'm saying since it's oh so much more important to you that your myth be true. It's part of your identity. Very sad for you Mariano to be so disconnected from reality.
Peter; Thanks for writing back, I really do appreciate our exchanges (that bit about difribulators was just a leg pull).
I am tempted to again answer each in turn but am afraid that our comments will grow exponentially with each round. Thus, I thought to make some basic points and then answer some specifics.
You made your first logical fallacy at the outset: even if I accept nonsense on faith that does not mean that you did not present me with absolutes and dogma about things that you cannot possibly know. Yet, I understand that by adhering to absolute materialism you allow yourself to discount any claims of the supernatural a priori and without further consideration.
The most evidence based cosmological theory states that every material thing and, for example, the laws of nature came into being at a specific point in time. Thus, since time, space, matter and the laws of nature came into being at that moment it is rational to consider that this event was caused and that whatever caused it was, by necessity, timeless or eternal, spaceless or not bound to locality, immaterial or spirit and free of the restraints of natural laws. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” let us consider what is being said here, “In the beginning [time] God [a preexisting being] created [utilized intelligence and applied energy] the heavens [space] and the earth [matter]…”
As to your contention that “No god - real or imagined or immaterial - can violate the speed of light” - I can ride my bicycle faster than the speed of light. Lene Hau has slowed the speed of light to 38 mph (and that was a decade ago, in 2003 she “froze” light).
I fully agree that many religions expect full control of us and that is only part of the reason that I despise religion. This is part of the reason why in my circles, being referred to as “religious” in tantamount to a put down. I have a relationship with my wife and give her part of my autonomy, I also give part to my children part, I give my boss some, give my government some and yes, give it to God as well.
Let us consider context with regards to my lining up people—it referred to living people who have not yet died and who would disprove your notion that supernatural beliefs won't do anything except give you an illusion that there is a higher power. Their changed lives prove you wrong. Deluded about their beliefs or not, facts are facts—their lives have changed for the better. But perhaps the problem is the phrasing of your comment and not our subsequent discussion.
Christians do not believe in three gods nor do they “have three gods in one.” But what, I wonder, is the point of accuracy since it is “All nonsense”? In any case, the words of Prof. Richard Lewontin may be of interest: “What seems absurd depends on one’s prejudice. Carl Sagan accepts, as I do, the duality of light, which is at the same time wave and particle, but he thinks that the consubstantiality of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost puts the mystery of the Holy Trinity ‘in deep trouble.’ Two’s company, but three’s a crowd.” (Billions and Billions of Demons New York Times Book Reviews, Volume 44, Number 1 [January 9, 1997] I posted his entire, very sobering, article here).
You claimed to know what atheist will do which is something that you cannot know. Your atheist friends are a very, very tiny sample. I have atheist friends who would not know logic if their worldview depended on it and I have others that claim that atheist do not claim that god(s) do not exist and yet, here you are. In fact, Stan just posted over at Atheism is Dead and the first comment denied that atheist assert that gods do not exist. I was kind enough to prep them for a comment from you.
I understand that it is very easy to perform a “Bible and…” search on the internet but I think that you misunderstood my question which was based on your misunderstanding of the Bible. You asserted that in order to “follow the bible” I would have to “bash babies against the rocks and commit genocide against those over the hills and many other nasty evil and vile orders of violence, rape, murder, incest, killing.” I then asked that you show me how this is the case. You then offer a link that quotes the Bible to the effect of such events having taken place. But my question was for you to demonstrate the accuracy of your assertion that the Bible commands me to do such things if I am to “follow the bible” in a consistent manner.
I always appreciate it when an atheist is honest about ethics and admits that they are following the “contemporary ethical standards” de jour which are tentative by necessity. In this way you have forfeited your ability to, in a logically consistent manner, condemn any past actions since you cannot hold accountable to “contemporary ethical standards in most western countries” the actions done by non-contemporary non-western country dwellers. You should also be very cautious of condemning any of actions of today since, for all you know, ethics are evolving as we speak and today’s unethical action may be tomorrow ethical action.
Professor Richard Dawkins is not only a scientist but a celebrity. He is not only lecturer but a debater. He is not only a teacher but an author.
Prof. Richard Dawkins has long been one of the world’s leading voices for the activists atheist movement, one of the leaders of the “New Atheists.”
This blog, Richard Dawkins : Scientist or Activist?, which was established in Nov. 2007, provides a careful dissection of his various statements on a wide range of issue: biology, evolution, morality, abortion, religion, the Bible, and much more.
Get my ebook, "The Apocryphal Jesus," here
"There are many ways in which atheism is a comforting delusion: it is the delusion of absolute autonomy, of ultimate lack of accountability, of there being no one or nothing higher than ourselves, etc." - Mariano
ReplyDeleteBeing a non theist or being a theist it is the same really since there are no real gods except in mythologies and in the delusional minds of people infected with the mind virus of faith based beliefs.
In objective reality people have absolute autonomy unless they give it to someone else as so many do when they give authority to governments, leaders of their "group", to their "faith". Giving one's autonomy to another is slavery.
As for the ultimate lack of accountability humans have taken up the accountability in a number of ways with peer pressure, conversation, police, justice systems, and yes horrifically even vigilantism, wars, police, justice systems, terrorism, assassinations and a whole host of other nasty methods. Why? Without there being a "higher" authority then humans we need to do the job ourselves when appropriate. The problem comes in when some people think it's appropriate and others don't! Then you have conflict. This is the world we live in. Believe in fairy tales of mythical gods and demons won't do anything except give you an illusion that there is a higher power. Belief in gods never stopped Hitler or other evil and vile christians from carrying out their nasty vile evil deeds in accordance with their belief systems however close to the bible or distorted from it. Imaginary friends in the sky won't stop bullets. A real friend might move you out of the way or prevent you from getting into the situation in the first place, or take the bullet for you on purpose or by accident. That's more than any mythical god has ever done for any human.
The Faith Based Beliefs that you hold so dear to won't save you from the permanent death without any possibility of an afterlife. It's the bugs that will have the party on your corpse as they will with mine, unless my wishes are carried out and they burn my corpse. Eventually our bodies turn to dust.
So you can go on believing in your mythical gods with your silly faith all you want, it won't make them real in the real objective reality that we actually exist within. Sure you'll "FEEL" that your mythical gods (three if I'm not mistaken by which faith you're into) are real but that is your faith based delusion and possibly dementia depending on how far it goes.
As for atheists being deluded. That seems highly unlikely for atheists will turn on a dime when presented with actual repeatable scientifically verifiable evidence for something being real. Show us the evidence and the proof and if it stands up to investigation then yes it's at least highly plausible if not evident.
Let's look at the so called evidence from the bible for one of the three gods of christianity: the mythical jesus.
He can walk on water. Ok, that's a stretch.
He can rise from the dead. Give me a break.
The walking on water experiment can be performed in any body of water as long as no cheating is done! That means no frozen water - even I have walked on glaciers of mile thick ice. Easy one. Liquid water without any boxes or other means of support that is quite different. Let's test it in your bath tub. Fill it with water at least 12 inches or 20 cm deep. Then simply step onto the surface of the water taking great care to not sink in the process. Oh, wait, you can't. You sink right. Try as you might you can't walk on water. There is a reason for that. It has to do with your mass, the surface tention of the water, and much other boring science stuff. It's not possible for you to walk on water! This test no matter who does it will fail. Thus the evidence is against the mythical jesus doing the same. The mythical jesus could not have walked on water as PROVEN WITH EVIDENCE using the scientific principles of the so far discovered and well tested laws of Nature. Not only is it not possible for the mythical jesus to have walked on water it's 100% certain that he could not have.
Now he could have been a magician or performed a trick by having rocks under the water. Great illusionists such as Chris Angel (check out his awesome Mind Freak show) can make people believe anything is real, but alas it's simply trickery. If the mythical jesus performed such a trick he'd be what is considered a "con man" if the people didn't know that is what he was doing.
So, the laws of Nature prevent the mythical jesus from walking on water which means that the story in the bible is false and simply not correct. It could be a lie? Sure, holy men wanting money is a con game that runs rampant as it's easy to part a fool with their money and there are so many faith based believers who are parting with their money to the church and other con men of the cloth.
Rising from the dead. Wow. That's a big one that if shown to be not true would rock the christian world. Well, it could not have happened at all! Not possible!!! Why? Simple: dead bodies don't rise from the dead. Now we all know that but why give an exception to the mythical jesus? Because by taking the leap of faith into the christian mythology that jesus rose form the dead you've suspended your critical thinking which is what the con men of the cloth want you to do. You see you are easier to fool that way and your wallet opens wider and more often for them to pluck money from. Ok, dead bodies don't rise from the dead... they rot... they dissolve... they go through many stages of decomposition from the moment you are brain and organ dead (your heart stops and can't be restarted). The bugs start their jobs, not just the maggots either but bacteria. Cells break down due to a lack of oxygen. Irreversible icky stuff happens in objective reality to dead bodies of any species and of any life form on earth.
So if the mythical jesus died he died forever and someone either made up the story (there were many decades between the alleged incident of rising and the writing of it for some reason) or someone moved the body and pretended to be the mythical jesus when he walked out of the tomb. Con jobs all.
The bottom line is that the mythical jesus was just that a mythology, a made up story book no different than Star Wars was made up of myths before it, or of Superman, or of any super hero. The fact that you bought it as real indicates a deep delusion and disconnection from objective reality on your part. Hopefully you don't really follow the bible in your deluded state of mind since then you'd have to bash babies against the rocks and commit genocide against those over the hills and many other nasty evil and vile orders of violence, rape, murder, incest, killing ordered by your mythical gods.
May you live in peace free from the slavery of faith based beliefs. May you teach your children to use evidence and proof to determine what is real and not faith! By doing so you will bring them into the modern scientific era out of the dark ages of faith and magic. If you can't save yourself at least save them from the slavery and spiritual void of faith based beliefs. Bring them up in objective reality where the world is real.
Peter,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comments, questions and good points.
You have presented me with one of the most absolutist and dogmatic set of statements I have read in a long time. Your comment is peppered with claim after claim of your having knowledge of things that you cannot possibly know.
How do you know that there are no real gods? Please prove it.
How do you know that there are mind viruses? It seems that you have contracted the Dawkinsian meme (which is an enthymeme). Please prove it.
“Giving one's autonomy to another is slavery” this is precisely inaccurate. When someone takes your autonomy it is slavery but when you are, as you state it, “Giving” then it is not slavery since it is willful.
None of your examples of vigilance amount to ultimate accountability since if you do not care and if you do not get caught then you simply get away with it.
How do you know that “Believe in fairy tales of mythical gods and demons won't do anything except give you an illusion that there is a higher power”? Disregarding your caricatures, I could line up a very, very long line of people who could prove you wrong by telling you a little bit about their lives before Christ and afterwards.
How do you know that “Imaginary friends in the sky won't stop bullets”? Imaginary friends, perhaps not, but a real relationship with the real God will. Please read up on Raul Ries who was a very, very violent and angry young man who was waiting in his house, with rifle in hand, for his wife to get home so that he could murder her and then commit suicide. Yet, his rifle “accidentally” hit the power button on the TV where “accidentally” Pastor Chuck Smith was preaching. The rest is history. Bullets were prevented from flying in the first place.
How do you know “That's more than any mythical god has ever done for any human”? Please prove it.
How do you know that “Belief in gods never stopped” anyone, let us say, “from carrying out their nasty vile evil deeds”? Please prove it.
How do you know that “The Faith Based Beliefs that you hold so dear to won't save you from the permanent death without any possibility of an afterlife”? Please prove it.
I believe in three gods? Yes, you are mistaken.
How do you know what atheists will do?
Science deals with the natural and therefore has nothing to say about the supernatural. Asking for scientific evidence of the supernatural betrays your misunderstanding of science.
Your argument against miracles is circular logic. If I may state it succinctly, you appear to be stating that there is uniform experience against miracles. Thus, if miracles do not occur, then they simply do not occur. However, you can only know that there is uniform experience against miracles if you know that all reported miracle claims are false. And, of course, you can know that all reports are false only if you already believe that miracles have never occurred.
Even using your own argument and absolute materialism I can show your anti-miracle argument to be illogical. You referred to, “the scientific principles of the so far discovered and well tested laws of Nature” since tomorrow we could discover thus far unknown laws or test known laws better you cannot know that “it's 100% certain.”
And what if even just once Jesus was able to walk on water? Just because you cannot reproduce it is no argument against it having occurred. Do you believe that the universe had a beginning? How many times can science prove that it happened? Once. Do you believe that life originated on earth? How many times did that happen that science can prove? I am tempted to say “once” but science actually has nothing but quaint Victorian era stories about this issue. But yes, generally it is stated that it was once. All of history is filled with occurrences that happened only once, never to be repeated such as your birth.
“he could have been a magician or performed a trick…” what someone “could have” done is irrelevant to what they did do. Please prove that he was performing tricks.
Please prove that Jesus deceived people in order to get their money. Every atheist organization I know has a donation button on their website. Does that tell you that they are deceivers?
How do you know that “dead bodies don't rise from the dead”? Because, as you say, “your heart stops and can't be restarted”? Please do some research on difribulators.
How do you know that “someone either made up the story…or someone moved the body…Con jobs all”? Please prove it.
How do you know that “jesus [sic] was just that a mythology, a made up story book”? Please prove it.
Please prove that in order to “follow the bible” I would have to “bash babies against the rocks and commit genocide against those over the hills and many other nasty evil and vile orders of violence, rape, murder, incest, killing.”
Also, please provide the standards by which you condemn such actions and the other vile evils that you mention.
aDios,
Mariano
Your welcome. Brace yourself for this might challenge your beliefs or upset you.
ReplyDelete"You have presented me with one of the most absolutist and dogmatic set of statements I have read in a long time. Your comment is peppered with claim after claim of your having knowledge of things that you cannot possibly know." - Mariano
That's quite funny Mariano considering that you'll accept any nonsense on faith. You sure know how to twist the arguments used against your point of view around. I'll give you that, however simply being a good debater isn't going to help you as you don't get it when you attempt to do that and that is why you fail.
"How do you know that there are no real gods? Please prove it." - Mariano
The evidence for no gods possibly existing is easy. The speed of light prevents it. No god - real or imagined or immaterial - can violate the speed of light. No gods can be omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent since that would violate the laws of physics. The only thing that mythical gods are is omni-stupid ideas from failed attempts at science thousands of years ago.
Wishful thinking on your part Mariano won't alter the laws of physics!
"How do you know that there are mind viruses? It seems that you have contracted the Dawkinsian meme (which is an enthymeme). Please prove it." - Mariano
Obviously you don't get the notion of mind viruses. They are mostly a metaphor. I'm not actually asserting they are a reality. They are used to describe what could be going on.
“Giving one's autonomy to another is slavery” this is precisely inaccurate. When someone takes your autonomy it is slavery but when you are, as you state it, “Giving” then it is not slavery since it is willful." - Mariano
Yes, it is slavery, willful or not. A few of my ancestors were "indentured servants" for passage across the Atlantic to the so called new world; they didn't have any illusions that they were not entering a form of slavery! We're talking about autonomy, full control of you. Which is what many religions expect.
None of your examples of vigilance amount to ultimate accountability since if you do not care and if you do not get caught then you simply get away with it.
"How do you know that “Believe in fairy tales of mythical gods and demons won't do anything except give you an illusion that there is a higher power”? - Mariano
Basic observation. It does cause people to commit unspeakable acts of violence against others. It's simply wishful thinking on you part Mariano.
"Disregarding your caricatures, I could line up a very, very long line of people who could prove you wrong by telling you a little bit about their lives before Christ and afterwords." - Mariano
What? You can line up people who are long dead and have them tell me stuff? You're a total nut job Mariano, way worse than I thought.
Now maybe you meant figuratively rather than literally. Ok, so what? I'm not saying that you can't have positive experiences or think you are by being deluded by Christ and other cult beliefs of a similar ilk.
You're simply a wishful thinker Mariano.
How do you know that “Imaginary friends in the sky won't stop bullets”?
It's up to you to prove with evidence that they do since you are the ones positing the existence of mythical gods.
Since you ask it's easy, since gods don't exist they can't stop bullets. Even if they did exist they couldn't affect the laws of nature.
"Imaginary friends, perhaps not, but a real relationship with the real God will." - Mariano
There is no real god. It's a mythical idea. Not real in any shape or form other than your fantasy.
"Please read up on Raul Ries who was a very, very violent and angry young man who was waiting in his house, with rifle in hand, for his wife to get home so that he could murder her and then commit suicide. Yet, his rifle “accidentally” hit the power button on the TV where “accidentally” Pastor Chuck Smith was preaching. The rest is history. Bullets were prevented from flying in the first place." - Mariano
Ok, so you are a total nut job after all. That's not proof of gods interfering with the events. There are things known as accidents.
"How do you know “That's more than any mythical god has ever done for any human”? Please prove it." - Mariano
Mythical gods are just that mythical. They can't exist. The laws of Nature prevent them from existing in objective reality. They can't even exist immaterially.
Besides it's up to you to prove with evidence that they do exist. Failure to prove that they do exist means that you've got nothing. Worse than that, a lack of prove with evidence means that there is no way that you can know anything about any aspect of your mythical gods. They are a fantasy as is everything you think you know about them. It's all a mythology.
"How do you know that “Belief in gods never stopped” anyone, let us say, “from carrying out their nasty vile evil deeds”? Please prove it."
A belief might stop someone but the mythical gods you think are real won't since they are mythologies of fairies and magic people. Not real. Stories for sure, but not real life. Get over it.
"How do you know that “The Faith Based Beliefs that you hold so dear to won't save you from the permanent death without any possibility of an afterlife”? Please prove it." - Mariano
That's easy. Dead bodies rot and are eaten by bugs and eventually turn to dust one way or another. Since you are inseparable from your body and souls don't exist dead bodies are our final fate. No afterlife but bugs chewing on your corpse.
"I believe in three gods? Yes, you are mistaken." - Mariano
You seem to be a christian interested in Christ but you also say "shalom" so I'm actually a bit confused by you lack of statement on your faith. Christians have three gods in one, jesus, god, and the holy spirit. All nonsense. I guess god has three fingers. I'm not sure about the specific details of Jewish beliefs. Don't need to since it's all so much mind poo regardless of the details of whatever faith it is.
"How do you know what atheists will do?" - Mariano
I don't know what you mean. I know pretty well what my friends who are atheists generally will do to some degree.
"Science deals with the natural and therefore has nothing to say about the supernatural. Asking for scientific evidence of the supernatural betrays your misunderstanding of science." - Mariano
Nonsense. Any claims made by faith freaks such as yourself that assert aspect of objective reality are true are valid ground for science to investigate. I'm surprised you don't know that. If you've read and Dawkins, Hitchens, and others you'd clearly know that.
"Your argument against miracles is circular logic. If I may state it succinctly, you appear to be stating that there is uniform experience against miracles. Thus, if miracles do not occur, then they simply do not occur. However, you can only know that there is uniform experience against miracles if you know that all reported miracle claims are false. And, of course, you can know that all reports are false only if you already believe that miracles have never occurred." - Mariano
Miracles violate the laws of Nature thus miracles are fantasies by those hoping for them to be real. You are simply delusional if you think that miracles can happen in objective reality.
What evidence? Dead bodies don't rise from the dead after organ, brain death and cell death of critical cells. Never have and never will. It violates the well know and well tested laws of biology, chemistry, physics.
Get over it, miracles can't happen.
"Even using your own argument and absolute materialism I can show your anti-miracle argument to be illogical. You referred to, “the scientific principles of the so far discovered and well tested laws of Nature” since tomorrow we could discover thus far unknown laws or test known laws better you cannot know that “it's 100% certain.” - Mariano
Nonsense. Any new laws of Nature that we'd discover would have to take into account what is currently well know and well tested. Well tested means that we know quite a bit about that area. The example is Newton to Einstein and beyond. These transitions all incorporate the earlier work. That is the way of the objective reality that prevents nonsense mind pablum like yours Miriano.
"And what if even just once Jesus was able to walk on water? Just because you cannot reproduce it is no argument against it having occurred." - Mariano
It's nothing to do with having to reproduce it. We don't need to reproduce it to know it can't happen. Learn some science. Free your brain from wishful thinking. You really are deep into the cult. Really deep.
"Do you believe that the universe had a beginning?" - Mariano
I have no beliefs in that regard. The current evidence points to the big bang having occurred.
"How many times can science prove that it happened? Once." - Mariano
Yes, but we have evidence that it very likely happened, whereas with dead bodies rising and walking on water we have evidence and laws of nature to prove that it can't happen, didn't happen, will never happen. Thus your bible and it's stories are just that stories that if they did happen were embellished so that fools like yourself fall for the con job by the men in cloth to fill their wallets and drain yours.
"Do you believe that life originated on earth? How many times did that happen that science can prove?" - Mariano
The jury is out as it recently has been shown to be plausible that life originated in space and was seeded here by natural processes. Organic compounds that are the building blocks of dna have been found in space. However, complex life arose here on earth. The evidence in the fossil record in the actual Earth is overwhelmingly conclusive about that. Life may have arisen more than once on Earth, that is possible as it might not have taken the first time. We don't know that detail and while it's interesting it won't change the facts in the ground that prove complex life originated here.
"I am tempted to say “once” but science actually has nothing but quaint Victorian era stories about this issue. But yes, generally it is stated that it was once. All of history is filled with occurrences that happened only once, never to be repeated such as your birth." - Mariano
So it's likely you are also an unintelligent Intelligent Design proponent as indicated by your comments about "Victorian era stories".
It doesn't matter that all of history is filled with events that only happened once. It's clear that you don't know how to think and apply laws of Nature!
Can you jump up to the moon from the surface of the Earth without any assistance from machines? Nope. It will never happen. That is the application of the laws of physics to determining if something is possible using the process of elimination, a key component of scientific thinking and reasoning. It also matters not whether you use Newton or Einstein or Quantum Physics to determine if you can get to the moon with just your body and no machines. Even though the laws of physics have been updated since Netwon and Einstein you still can't violate them!!! Never going to happen.
“he could have been a magician or performed a trick…” what someone “could have” done is irrelevant to what they did do. Please prove that he was performing tricks.
Well he didn't rise from the dead and he didn't walk on water. If people think he did - assuming he existed at all - then he was a con man performing tricks to deceive people. That is evil and vile. If he didn't do any of those things then the people who wrote the bible and other documents are liars or the people who told them what to write or the people who told them. It's simply broken telephone.
The laws of Nature override any possibly of miracles. Get used to it Mariano.
You really do seem lost deep in your mythology. Sad really.
"Please prove that Jesus deceived people in order to get their money. Every atheist organization I know has a donation button on their website. Does that tell you that they are deceivers?" - Mariano
Dead bodies don't rise from the dead.
How do you know that “dead bodies don't rise from the dead”? Because, as you say, “your heart stops and can't be restarted”? Please do some research on defibrillators.
Jesus wasn't in a modern hospital, he was in a cave three days rotten! Learn some biology. Visit a farm where they slaughter animals and watch an animal begin to decompose for three days. It's not coming back to life and you know it. That is the evidence that your precious jesus rotted and didn't rise from the dead.
Every time you eat a piece of meat you are eating the evidence that Jesus could not rise from the dead and thus can't be anything but an ordinary human being! So enjoy the meat and think about how stupid you are for thinking that dead bodies can rise from the dead. You see little bugs and bacteria were working on Jesus even before he died! By the time he was both brain dead and organ dead he was too far gone to be saved by a MODERN hospital that wouldn't be around for another ~1930 years!!!
It's wishful thinking to think that dead bodies can rise from the dead AFTER organ death and brain death. The only reason that hospitals can sometimes revive people, it's quite rare actually, is that they have electricity and modern technology to zap the heart BEFORE brain death and organ death occurs. Go and talk with some emergency room medics and you'll know what I'm talking about. A friend of mine works in the cardiac care unit of one of the major local hospitals and she knows this fact of life all too well.
No wishful thinking on your part will bring dead jesus back to life. If he died he stayed dead. Simple.
"How do you know that “someone either made up the story…or someone moved the body…Con jobs all”? Please prove it. "- Mariano
Prove that jesus rose from the dead with evidence! You're the nut job attempting to violate the laws of Nature with your stories.
Well if he was seen after he supposedly died then he wasn't really dead just pretending to be dead, or someone pretended to be him after he did in fact die. It's not rocket science. It's pretty basic forensic analysis of a crime scene to think it through. Dead bodies don't rise from the dead thus the story can't be true.
You cling to the story with all your resolve even when confronted with laws of Nature that conclusively prove that dead bodies can't rise from the dead or that people can't walk on water.
"How do you know that “jesus [sic] was just that a mythology, a made up story book”? Please prove it." - Mariano
It's up to you to prove with evidence that he did exist since you are the one positing him, not me.
The proof that he was a mythology is that dead bodies don't rise from the dead. There might have been a jesus for all I know, but he most certainly wasn't the son of god and he didn't walk on water nor rise form the dead. Facts of life. Sorry to break these facts of life to you Mariano but it's important that you know them since you've got some kids to bring up into the modern era. Bringing them up in the 13th century with old myths won't be wise.
"Please prove that in order to “follow the bible” I would have to “bash babies against the rocks and commit genocide against those over the hills and many other nasty evil and vile orders of violence, rape, murder, incest, killing.” - Mariano
Well that is what some of the orders of your mythical gods in the bible order his follows to commit. See some of the nasty the quotes from the bible here: http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm. There are many more in the bible. It's riff with them. Sure you can cherry pick, but if anyone wrote such a vile book in our modern era they'd be charged with hate crimes. Oh, wait someone did, it was called "Mein Kampf". While some stories in the bible might be "good" many of them advocate horrific crimes, which means you can't cherry pick them. If you could then why not cherry pick from the other book mentioned as some do (I don't by the way)?
"Also, please provide the standards by which you condemn such actions and the other vile evils that you mention." - Mariano
The standards are contemporary ethical standards in most western countries. By these standards Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost and the Roman Catholic Church should be brought up on Crimes Against Humanity. Sadly politics prevent that. Oh, and the fact that the gods are a myth. The culprits are the delusional and demented folks running churches and other religious organizations around the globe.
Face it Mariano you are deeply delusional and possibly demented by your Faith Based Beliefs. So much so that even simple tests of the laws of Nature that you yourself can test for and apply with simple reason ruling out any possibility of these stories being true has no impact upon you. That means that you can't really even hear what I'm saying since it's oh so much more important to you that your myth be true. It's part of your identity. Very sad for you Mariano to be so disconnected from reality.
Peace.
Peter;
ReplyDeleteThanks for writing back, I really do appreciate our exchanges (that bit about difribulators was just a leg pull).
I am tempted to again answer each in turn but am afraid that our comments will grow exponentially with each round. Thus, I thought to make some basic points and then answer some specifics.
You made your first logical fallacy at the outset: even if I accept nonsense on faith that does not mean that you did not present me with absolutes and dogma about things that you cannot possibly know. Yet, I understand that by adhering to absolute materialism you allow yourself to discount any claims of the supernatural a priori and without further consideration.
The most evidence based cosmological theory states that every material thing and, for example, the laws of nature came into being at a specific point in time. Thus, since time, space, matter and the laws of nature came into being at that moment it is rational to consider that this event was caused and that whatever caused it was, by necessity, timeless or eternal, spaceless or not bound to locality, immaterial or spirit and free of the restraints of natural laws.
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” let us consider what is being said here, “In the beginning [time] God [a preexisting being] created [utilized intelligence and applied energy] the heavens [space] and the earth [matter]…”
As to your contention that “No god - real or imagined or immaterial - can violate the speed of light” - I can ride my bicycle faster than the speed of light. Lene Hau has slowed the speed of light to 38 mph (and that was a decade ago, in 2003 she “froze” light).
I fully agree that many religions expect full control of us and that is only part of the reason that I despise religion. This is part of the reason why in my circles, being referred to as “religious” in tantamount to a put down. I have a relationship with my wife and give her part of my autonomy, I also give part to my children part, I give my boss some, give my government some and yes, give it to God as well.
Let us consider context with regards to my lining up people—it referred to living people who have not yet died and who would disprove your notion that supernatural beliefs won't do anything except give you an illusion that there is a higher power. Their changed lives prove you wrong. Deluded about their beliefs or not, facts are facts—their lives have changed for the better. But perhaps the problem is the phrasing of your comment and not our subsequent discussion.
Christians do not believe in three gods nor do they “have three gods in one.” But what, I wonder, is the point of accuracy since it is “All nonsense”? In any case, the words of Prof. Richard Lewontin may be of interest:
“What seems absurd depends on one’s prejudice. Carl Sagan accepts, as I do, the duality of light, which is at the same time wave and particle, but he thinks that the consubstantiality of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost puts the mystery of the Holy Trinity ‘in deep trouble.’ Two’s company, but three’s a crowd.” (Billions and Billions of Demons New York Times Book Reviews, Volume 44, Number 1 [January 9, 1997] I posted his entire, very sobering, article here).
You claimed to know what atheist will do which is something that you cannot know. Your atheist friends are a very, very tiny sample. I have atheist friends who would not know logic if their worldview depended on it and I have others that claim that atheist do not claim that god(s) do not exist and yet, here you are. In fact, Stan just posted over at Atheism is Dead and the first comment denied that atheist assert that gods do not exist. I was kind enough to prep them for a comment from you.
I understand that it is very easy to perform a “Bible and…” search on the internet but I think that you misunderstood my question which was based on your misunderstanding of the Bible. You asserted that in order to “follow the bible” I would have to “bash babies against the rocks and commit genocide against those over the hills and many other nasty evil and vile orders of violence, rape, murder, incest, killing.” I then asked that you show me how this is the case. You then offer a link that quotes the Bible to the effect of such events having taken place. But my question was for you to demonstrate the accuracy of your assertion that the Bible commands me to do such things if I am to “follow the bible” in a consistent manner.
I always appreciate it when an atheist is honest about ethics and admits that they are following the “contemporary ethical standards” de jour which are tentative by necessity. In this way you have forfeited your ability to, in a logically consistent manner, condemn any past actions since you cannot hold accountable to “contemporary ethical standards in most western countries” the actions done by non-contemporary non-western country dwellers. You should also be very cautious of condemning any of actions of today since, for all you know, ethics are evolving as we speak and today’s unethical action may be tomorrow ethical action.
Shalom and aDios,
Mariano